Military service makes you a man (or woman)?
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5/19/2008 8:08 pm |
Mutual agreement is a good thing and I think it is great that you and Mr. Khankrumthebulga are in unison regarding the complex issue of gender roles within the military. I often collaborate with contemporaries as well and enjoy sharing ideas borne of such symbiosis via a broader public medium such as KFF. When I acknowledge the input of my colleagues by ensconcing their ideas within quotation marks and referencing their names, they are eternally appreciative. I suspect blog viewers are similarly appreciative of such a modest courtesy lest they mistake the words of your source for your own.  Whaddya lookin at hah?
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5/19/2008 8:03 pm |
Parandol78, I went back to that thread you have posted here, and I can remember as I stated earlier, I was one of the original few engaged in that very conversation online when 'Khankrumthebulgar' stated this lengthy excerpt about women in combat. It is a discussion in the G&W section of y-answers and I've quoted him here due to the fact that I agree totally with his analysis on women and military service. He agrees with me as well, and we have no offense in quoting each others findings, he being on my contact list as an online friend. No offense, but if that 'quote' by Khankrumthebulger was taken as such an offense, then I will take it upon myself to site his 'borrowed quotes' accordingly. sorry for the invconvience of my not having done so here on 'you cannot quote sources' KFF... >>P.S. your pic, huh? I LIKE...  Your a very handsome young man, Parandol78. Your Mom must be proud.  Whaddya lookin at hah?
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5/19/2008 2:34 pm |
It is my opinion & experience that the army has no intention of making men or women. what the set out to do is mental break you by taking a process of brain washing till you are an empty shell of your former self, my mother barely recognized me. they then look to train you to be a human machine that accepts and follows orders without question. I believe a man to be a person who can consciously make the right decisions for himself, regardless of any external forces.
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4/28/2008 10:30 pm |
NoniJuice, This is the full comment by Khankrumthebulgar>>> "The Courage of our Military Women has never been the question. The Question that should be asked is having Women in Combat increases the likely scenarios that more Men will die, and the Mission will be compromised. You cannot base policy on the Actions of a Few Exceptional Women. But the Average Woman. For every person whose MOS slot is filled with a Mission critical skill to replace them jeopardizes the Mission. And adds greatly to the costs, reduced Moral, and unit cohesion. War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries 120 lbs. of gear including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male. Feminists don't care how many Men die. Colonel David H. Hackworth noted that the training that gender norms or is too easy on Troops. Results in more Men coming home in Flag drapped American Coffins. If Feminists are so concerned about equality. Let's draft Women create an all Female unit and see how it performs? Men are currently required to register. If Women are truly equal let them show it. And forever end the question. The Rand Corporation report of 1997 carries alot of Feminist polemics. And a feminist Official in the Clinton Administration wanted to disband the US Marines. Who she criticized as a Quasi Religious Cult. It is also Man for Man the most efficient fighting force in the Armed Services. And brings more combat power to bear Man for Man. It is about getting the job done and getting as many Home alive as possible. Defeat the enemy and come home." >>>>> The specific quote that you borrowed is an excerpt from the second paragraph. Although social forums are informal in nature, I imagine it would be nice to recognize the contribution of others' ideas to our own aesthetic, (especially when quoting verbatim.)I enjoy your writing and would not wish for unreferenced quotations to undermine your credibility.>>> p.s. Yes 'tis my handsome pic. I went back to that thread you have posted here, and I can remember as I stated earlier, I was one of the original few engaged in that very conversation online when 'Khankrumthebulgar' stated this lengthy excerpt about women in combat. It is a discussion in the G&W section of y-answers and I've quoted him here due to the fact that I agree totally with his analysis on women and military service. He agrees with me as well, and we have no offense in quoting each others findings, he being on my contact list as an online friend. No offense, but if that 'quote' by Khankrumthebulger was taken as such an offense, then I will take it upon myself to site his 'borrowed quotes' accordingly. sorry for the invconvience of my not having done so here on 'you cannot quote sources' KFF... >>P.S. your pic, huh? I LIKE... Your a very handsome young man, Parandol78. Your Mom must be proud. "Only a few things are really important." -- Marie Dressler
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4/26/2008 6:13 pm |
Owen: It s a pretty common to hear the "not a full male until you enter the military" theory being pushed in the Korean society. In one word, that s bullshit. It s part propaganda and part justification for the forced nature of military service. I interact with post-military Koreans at work when I am in Korea, and I don't find them any more masculine than "others". As I stated above, if anything, Korean-style military service makes men lacking leadership, less creative, and severly non-assertive. If this masculine, then, your Korean friends are right. In my opinion, masculinity is learned earlier in male's life. During teenage years. What Westerners may lack as far as discipline in military, they make up for it in team sports or other organized activities that Korean kid do not have as much access to. (sorry for ending a sentence with a preposition).
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4/26/2008 5:39 pm |
NoniJuice, This is the full comment by Khankrumthebulgar>>> "The Courage of our Military Women has never been the question. The Question that should be asked is having Women in Combat increases the likely scenarios that more Men will die, and the Mission will be compromised. You cannot base policy on the Actions of a Few Exceptional Women. But the Average Woman. For every person whose MOS slot is filled with a Mission critical skill to replace them jeopardizes the Mission. And adds greatly to the costs, reduced Moral, and unit cohesion. War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries 120 lbs. of gear including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male. Feminists don't care how many Men die. Colonel David H. Hackworth noted that the training that gender norms or is too easy on Troops. Results in more Men coming home in Flag drapped American Coffins. If Feminists are so concerned about equality. Let's draft Women create an all Female unit and see how it performs? Men are currently required to register. If Women are truly equal let them show it. And forever end the question. The Rand Corporation report of 1997 carries alot of Feminist polemics. And a feminist Official in the Clinton Administration wanted to disband the US Marines. Who she criticized as a Quasi Religious Cult. It is also Man for Man the most efficient fighting force in the Armed Services. And brings more combat power to bear Man for Man. It is about getting the job done and getting as many Home alive as possible. Defeat the enemy and come home." >>>>> The specific quote that you borrowed is an excerpt from the second paragraph. Although social forums are informal in nature, I imagine it would be nice to recognize the contribution of others' ideas to our own aesthetic, (especially when quoting verbatim.)I enjoy your writing and would not wish for unreferenced quotations to undermine your credibility.>>> p.s. Yes 'tis my handsome pic. Whaddya lookin at hah?
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4/26/2008 5:10 pm |
Psst! Parandol!! Say... Is that your handsome pic? "Only a few things are really important." -- Marie Dressler
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4/26/2008 9:12 am |
http://koreanfriendfinder.com=20080314083728AAD7Vj8 ?? I can't view it...won't show. See what I mean...  "Only a few things are really important." -- Marie Dressler
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4/26/2008 9:07 am |
NoniJuice, You really should cite some of your sources here. You Wrote: "War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries some 120 lbs. of gear, including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male." KhanKrum of Malaysia wrote on http://koreanfriendfinder.com=20080314083728AAD7Vj8 : "War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries 120 lbs. of gear including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male. Feminists don't care how many Men die." I really don't intend to be picky but it is rather obvious copy and paste job here, (unless you are Khankrum of course) Derive carefully - Parandol But then again KFF doesn't seem to allow one to...err... 'qoute their sources', ... a bad glitch for all of us in this forums protocol, hmm?  This was a topic discussed by a few of my friends and I on another forum, and No, I am not this 'KhanKrum of Malaysia' individual from KFF you talk about here,Parandol... but I was a part of a group discussion were this was brought up by one, Rastagrappler, and I agreed totally with him and later found myself quoting 'his' statement in that discussion, and now here as well. the sttement is appropriate and true. If a 'source' is what you want, I can oblige as this 'lengthy discussion' can be found at: Yahoo answers > Social Science > Gender & Women's Studies > Resolved Question: Do you still think women can't handle combat? The question emphasis was based on this article: CAMP SALERNO, Afghanistan - A 19-year-old Army medic from Texas is set to become the first woman in Afghanistan -- and only the second female Soldier since World War II -- to receive the Silver Star, the nation's third-highest medal for valor. Army Spc. Monica Lin Brown saved the lives of fellow Soldiers after a roadside bomb tore through a convoy of Humvees in the eastern Paktia province in April 2007, the military said. After the explosion, which wounded five Soldiers in her unit, Brown ran through enemy gunfire and used her body to shield wounded comrades as mortars fell less than 100 yards away, the military said. She was part of a four-vehicle convoy patrolling near Jani Kheil in the eastern province of Paktia on April 25, 2007, when a bomb struck one of the Humvees. She started running toward the burning vehicle as insurgents opened fire. All five wounded Soldiers had scrambled out. Brown, of the 4th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, said ammunition going off inside the burning Humvee was sending shrapnel in all directions. She said they were sitting in a dangerous spot. "So we dragged them for 100 or 200 meters, got them away from the Humvee a little bit," she said. "I was in a kind of a robot-mode, did not think about much but getting the guys taken care of." For Brown, who knew all five wounded Soldiers, it became a race to get them all to a safer location. Eventually, they moved the wounded some 500 yards away and treated them on site before putting them on a helicopter for evacuation. "I did not really have time to be scared," Brown said. "Running back to the vehicle, I was nervous (since) I did not know how badly the guys were injured. That was scary." The military said Brown's "bravery, unselfish actions and medical aid rendered under fire saved the lives of her comrades and represents the finest traditions of heroism in combat." Isn't this just further proof that women are just as capable as men in combat? She did all the things a male soldier would do, and was just as effective. Source: http://koreanfriendfinder.com,13... BTW, I am the antagonist in that discussion...lol...as an effort to push it further along...before it finally died.  "Only a few things are really important." -- Marie Dressler
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4/26/2008 5:10 am |
The reason I started this blog/poll is because I have heard anecdotally that Korean women believe that "white" men are not "men" because htye have usually not served in the Army. But that Korean men have, sop they are "real men". Is this view prevalent or have I been talking to whackjobs? or Korean Korean women ? KORN 
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 4/26/2008 4:20 am |
The reason I started this blog/poll is because I have heard anecdotally that Korean women believe that "white" men are not "men" because htye have usually not served in the Army. But that Korean men have, sop they are "real men". Is this view prevalent or have I been talking to whackjobs?
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4/25/2008 10:36 pm |
Military service doesn't necessarily make one a man or a woman. What makes one a soldier, just a mature not a man or a woman, is the ability to handle military/combative situations when placed therein period. Some can some cannot.... Nobody with intelligence has ever doubted that SOME women are perfectly capable of handling combat situations. (Just like SOME men are incapable of doing so.) Yet, there is a certain minimum amount of physical strength needed for a person to handle many of the demands of a combat environment, male or female. It doesn't take much strength as a man or woman to pull a trigger...but it does take physical strength to bear the weight of infantry combat gear, etc. War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries some 120 lbs. of gear, including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male. It is not really a question of men/women in general not being able to be men/women. Regardless of military experience, being a man or a woman is an individual challenge. Some think they can't due to being told they can't.... There were and are actual men, masculine in appearance at first, who were told they could, but really can't handle combat. (If you go into any veteran's hospital today,...in their psychiatric ward, you'll see some of those very men there today). I want to rally with Ren: women are just as capable of finding themselves in the military just as men and productive, too. (smile)Although females military heroes are only relatively new in the U.S., women MUST serve in the Israeli army, as well as men. They have been doing so for 60 years now and are not considered 'the exception', but have been part of 'the rule'. Also, heroism in today's wars, with insurgents attacking at whatever spot they find most vulnerable to an attack, there is not the same kind of line between combat and non-combat assignments; yet, women are routinely serving in combat situations in today's world, and I am sure most of them are doing just as well as any of their male counterparts. However, this does not prove women should be allowed to serve in the infantry. An infantry soldier must be able to routinely carry a hundred pounds or more on his back for days, even weeks, at a time. You can start with a group of 60 reasonably healthy male trainees in their late teens and early 20's, and during a training cycle, the majority of them can be conditioned to do this sort of thing. A certain percentage of women could be conditioned for it, but definitely not 90% or so--half, or better, simply would not have the upper body strength. Personally, I'd like to see women be allowed to serve in any role they're capable of fulfilling. But they should be REQUIRED to meet the SAME physical fitness standards that men are required to meet, without relaxing those standards because they're "girls".  You really should cite some of your sources here. You Wrote: "War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries some 120 lbs. of gear, including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male." KhanKrum of Malaysia wrote on http://koreanfriendfinder.com=20080314083728AAD7Vj8 : "War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries 120 lbs. of gear including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male. Feminists don't care how many Men die." I really don't intend to be picky but it is rather obvious copy and paste job here, (unless you are Khankrum of course) Derive carefully - Parandol Whaddya lookin at hah?
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4/25/2008 10:03 pm |
Military service doesn't necessarily make one a man or a woman. What makes one a soldier, just a mature not a man or a woman, is the ability to handle military/combative situations when placed therein period. Some can some cannot.... Nobody with intelligence has ever doubted that SOME women are perfectly capable of handling combat situations. (Just like SOME men are incapable of doing so.) Yet, there is a certain minimum amount of physical strength needed for a person to handle many of the demands of a combat environment, male or female. It doesn't take much strength as a man or woman to pull a trigger...but it does take physical strength to bear the weight of infantry combat gear, etc. War is Brutal. Women's bodies simply are not as strong as Males. And the Average frontline Combat Infantryman carries some 120 lbs. of gear, including Body Armour. The cardio vascular capacity of a twenty something Woman, is comparable to a fifty year old Male. It is not really a question of men/women in general not being able to be men/women. Regardless of military experience, being a man or a woman is an individual challenge. Some think they can't due to being told they can't.... There were and are actual men, masculine in appearance at first, who were told they could, but really can't handle combat. (If you go into any veteran's hospital today,...in their psychiatric ward, you'll see some of those very men there today). I want to rally with Ren: women are just as capable of finding themselves in the military just as men and productive, too. (smile)Although females military heroes are only relatively new in the U.S., women MUST serve in the Israeli army, as well as men. They have been doing so for 60 years now and are not considered 'the exception', but have been part of 'the rule'. Also, heroism in today's wars, with insurgents attacking at whatever spot they find most vulnerable to an attack, there is not the same kind of line between combat and non-combat assignments; yet, women are routinely serving in combat situations in today's world, and I am sure most of them are doing just as well as any of their male counterparts. However, this does not prove women should be allowed to serve in the infantry. An infantry soldier must be able to routinely carry a hundred pounds or more on his back for days, even weeks, at a time. You can start with a group of 60 reasonably healthy male trainees in their late teens and early 20's, and during a training cycle, the majority of them can be conditioned to do this sort of thing. A certain percentage of women could be conditioned for it, but definitely not 90% or so--half, or better, simply would not have the upper body strength. Personally, I'd like to see women be allowed to serve in any role they're capable of fulfilling. But they should be REQUIRED to meet the SAME physical fitness standards that men are required to meet, without relaxing those standards because they're "girls". "Only a few things are really important." -- Marie Dressler
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4/25/2008 6:32 pm |
I think military service is good for both kids and the country. But I am not sure whether it has anything to do with the manhood. But it may contribute to building up the sense of brotherhood, in my opinion
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4/25/2008 5:37 pm |
I think that for some kids it might be good to go in. For others maybe not. Good to see ya contribute to the blogs Owen. I like it ! KORN
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4/25/2008 3:02 am |
I think I would have benefitted from going to Military. would have taught me more self discipline. If I may speak for Koreans in korea where there is mandatory military service, I think there is more harm than good. As you say, Owen, it really hurts the creativity in people. Kids in their most independent thinking ages are (19 - 23) are forced to conform and think and act the same. This renders many adult Korean males to become passive and lacking leadership initiative. Kind of the antithesis to this Pepe malice. GOOD Topic OWeN
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 4/25/2008 2:39 am |
People don't go into the Army in their early 20's. They go into the Army from ages 17 all the way up to age 42. Even older if they're prior service.
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4/24/2008 11:50 pm |
EXCUSE ME!!! why are you ONLY REFERRING TO MEN ??there are woman out there serving their country and dying for their country ...You should rephrase your question!!
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4/24/2008 10:50 pm |
I've seen men change after going into military with negative results, and some of them do not know what to do with themselves after getting out or retiring. The military teaches them discipline which can be good depending how the men use it, but the military's main role is for aggression/defense of the nation. The military men are taught to kill and defend themselves which by itself does not make them men but a tool that serves interest of their country.
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4/24/2008 9:49 pm |
No it doesn't in my opinion because in the army the knind of things they learn are not the same as what it takes to "be a man" in the outside world. The army can help peoples work ethic, courage, and male bonding but could also have harmful effects on mens' social skills and creativity. Besides people go into the army when they are in their early 20's. I say if you are not already 99% of the man you will be by that time...then it is too late to start.
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