Elder Brother Responsibility
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Last Read: |
I am giving a speech at my Korean School tomorrow on the difference between eldest brother responsibility in Korea and New Zealand and in particular on how eldest brother responsibility is changing these days in Korea. I will say that in Korea the duty to care for the parents and limited auithority over the younger siblings is being diffused as daughters and younger sons take on more of the financial burden of supporting their parents. In my culture it has always been a joint responsibility of all the children and the eldest brother never had any special status because of this. it seems that slowly Korea is going this way too. Am I right? If so why is this happeneing? Economic reasons? The influence of Western culture? |
||
4/23/2008 9:25 pm |
Yes, let's go back to Owen's issue here, "responsibility"....which was the main topic. Aside from my lack of knowledge regarding militarism, authoritarianism(Czar Russia, Meiji Japan, Prussia, etc), you have introduced too much "unnecessary informations" that didn't belong here.....thus, making it more confusing. Even after reading, I don't see how these "factors" were responsible for average Koreans' thinking regarding "responsibility"?? What I concluded??...that these factors apply to politics and how Park implemented them??....and what is "militarization of Confucianism"??....still Confucianism?? Is this the cause of Korea's change, then??? Jeteveux, I've never said Confucianism was solely responsible... and yes, ancestral worship existed way before Confucius was born, but his "ideology" greatly expanded and improved how we pay homage to the deceased by means of "Filial Piety" as outlined in Confucianism....including how fruits, meats, fish should be placed in front of altar.....as performed by the "male" heirs......very Confucian act to this day. Confucianism acknowledges parents but "mothers" rank "lower"....and falls under the subject of fathers....a real head of the household, unfortunately.....for the duty of Filial Piety belongs to the males and not females.....lacking TRUE sense of equality, or shall I say "not an equal opportunity employer"......I can see how you got confused with it....and you are gravely mistaken for Confucianism is "patrilineal descent" and women is second-class citizen.....simply verify your own genealogy. Neo-Confucianism restricted the status of women...even further  No, certainly not....apologize, why?? Again.....I said no such a thing.... I referred the Korea(parent) and Cho(son) example because Korea....more preciously, Korean government "feels" obliged to do so.....which by the way was the ultimate "goal" of Confucius. He was searching dukes, princes, kings, etc. to advise them of the Virtues of Moral Rulers abiding by the Mandate of Heaven. Now, if we can address the real issue here???.....lol
| ||
4/22/2008 9:59 pm |
two2tango Sorry that I couldn't return so soon. I am normally more busy during the weekdays so I probably won't be able to return sooner. And most likely I probably won't be able to reply back as fluently as I might have during weekend. I think you are bit exaggerating in regard to the influence of Confucianism in Korea as many people do. I recall reading one time where someone said that Confucianism is to Korea what Christianity is to West. That is definitely not true. We can imply Confucian reference to understand Korean culture but that doesn't necessarily mean that Korean custom was entirely caused by Confucianism. For example, ancestral worship wasn't influenced by Confucianism. Despite the fact that there are textual evidence in relation to Confucianism and ancestral worship, ancestral worship was something that existed before Confucius was born and as I have stated earlier, many customs in Asia in regard to family all existed before Confucius was born. There were strong combination of Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism and basically animism. I would have to disagree with Korea being "parents" while Cho being a "child" is really the frame of Confucian view. Confucianism teaches universal principle of interaction between heaven and earth. And when it comes to family, father is characterized as "heaven" and mother is characterized as "earth." Just like the humanity is products of the harmony between heaven and earth, family members are also products of father and mother. So in political context, king and queen used to be viewed in same context where king was considered as "national father" and queen as "national mother" same way they were also identified as balance and harmony between heaven and earth.(So this actually put common assumption of Confucianism being patriarchy as problematic frame) And this isn't exclusively Confucianism. This is also Taoism, Buddhism and essentially animism. However, contemporary politic in Korea is(like so many other countries) is centralized on single presidency which denounced the traditional principle of balance, harmony and interaction. Not to mention I believe your induction is also limiting. If same principle of harmony and interaction can exist between father and mother in family as well as king and queen in nation, how about the ultimate example that as products of heaven and earth, we are all brothers and sisters regardless of our race and nationalities. This is part of neo-Confucian teaching which I think can be good reference of new culture that can be adopted in such globalized situation. So if we as Koreans(I personally don't consider myself Korean exclusively) should apologize because Cho Seung Hee was a child of Korea(with no king and queen?) shouldn't everyone in this planet also apologize in same Confucian context because we are all products of heaven and earth and we are all brothers and sisters? And in regard to Owen's original question, this is about responsibility. In Confucianism, fault of one individual is related with fault of those who are part of same group such as family because they have direct responsibility. However, if we are to take your logic is that we as Koreans should apologize for someone who we have no direct connection and practically impossible for us to make any direct responsibility. Your claiming is overly formal and not practical in Confucian perspective. Not only that, the major problem that I have with Koreans who feel the need to apologize for Cho Seung Hee have two fold. One is that basically mean they are expecting people of other race and nation would do the same if they too have certain menace that creates chaos in society. And I believe in United States, that Korean people generally seem to take lots of racist view toward blacks and Hispanics in same context. Two is that when ever Korean people feel the need to apologize seem to incline more with Cho himself. In other word, they are more sympathetic because they are too worried about their "images" rather than the fact that there were about 30 students(that was something around 30, right?) who were wrongfully massacred. They seem to feel the urge of their own safety rather it is physical or in terms of "image," rather than being one with victims and being one with American community and support how "we" can rebuild "our" community and avoid such atrocity to happen again. But problem with Korean American is that when they are saying "we," they are basically talking about "Koreans" or "Korean Americans" and not "Americans." In other word, they are isolating themselves from United States. I have already talked about militarism earlier but you said you were not knowledgeable about it. So I will just end here. I will chat with you more later. "If I could lead you into the promised land, i could lead you back out again."
| ||
4/20/2008 8:31 pm |
good reading ! KORN 
| ||
4/20/2008 8:32 am |
No, not indirect role in such massacre but how Confucianism is embedded and entrenched in our mindset that we need to offer an apology....just as a parent would be responsible for the actions of a child. In this case, Korea is "parent" and Cho is the "child"....basing on the ideology of Confucianism, that is... Our daily routines....whether business or social....consist of etiquettes in propriety...again essential in the eyes of Confucianism. If any foreigner who visits Korea grasps the basic foundation of Confucianism....he or she will really begin to "understand" how we, Koreans, interact and carry out our businesses....shedding greater insights on how we tick  Huh? Militarism?.....hmmmm Yes, Joseon Dynasty embraced "Neo-Confucianism" developed during China's Song Dynasty....which combined Buddhism into it just as the Chinese counterparts....and now Christianity....shall we call it "New-World-Order Confucianism".....lol  "Main dilemma for today's Koreans are they are living in the world of alienation because they are living in modern society with pre-modern mindset. They are alienated from the modern reality which they are living in. We have the highest suicide rate among all the OECD nations. That is something to think about in terms of cultural backwardness of their world views and actual world that they are living in." Hmmmmmm....lost here??....this is beyond my scope of comprehension to mention any kind of comments or feedbacks....
| ||
4/20/2008 1:26 am |
Nice reply. I like it. My point wasn't exactly the same. My point was what ever the form of authoritarianism that exist today in Korea(including the relationship of elderly brothers as Owen have posted) isn't the legacy of Confucianism but rather it is the characteristic of militarism. It is the adaptation of fascist model of militarized state that Taehan Empire have accepted and also the form of militarization of modern social institutions(this also include family) as well. I agree that Confucianism can't be preserved exactly the same way it have started.(Even though it wasn't really my point) Confucianism was adopted based upon the reference of established religious tradition. So when Confucianism arrived to Korea, there were synthesis between Chinese Confucianism and Korean animism as much as it was true with Chinese Confucianism with Japanese shintoism in Japan. And we can also witness different characteristic of Confucianism during Koryo period and Yi Dynasty. During the Koryo period, Confucianism was more tolerant with other teachings such as Buddhism and Taoism while during Yi Dynasty, Confucian political power actually denounced Taoism and Buddhism as "heretic" and banned it. This doesn't really reflect Confucian teaching, however, it does reflect the political situation at the earlier period of Yi Dynasty where they needed to utilize Confucianism as instrument to replace previous political power and they did so by demonizing Buddhism and Taoism. Yi Dynasty's one of finest poet, Kim Shi Seup's poem actually talk about how Shilla queens were indoctrinated by Buddhism and drove the country to the ground, and yet, Kim's other poems also have very strong Taoist element to it. And despite the fact that Yi Dynasty is consider as "Confucian" society, it really wasn't Confucian in political spectrum. Confucianism was instrumentalized for bureaucratic agenda to monopolize the wealth of nation in favor of yangban through exploitation of farmers. However, there definitely was Confucian trait within the way of lives among the people of Yi Dynasty. And I think it is bit exaggeration to assume that Confucianism played central role in terms of functioning Asian societies. After all, Confucius himself have admitted that he isn't the innovator of new philosophy but an interpreter. Confucianism developed through affirming the world view that existed before the time of Confucius in the religion of animism in regard to the cosmological dynamics. What Confucius developed was he took the very system of harmony in relation to our cosmological order and philosophized it into moral discourse of society and politic. So tradition really wasn't simply nor even dominantly Confucian. 80% of Korea's national treasures actually have Buddhist tradition. Yi Dynasty really wasn't entirely Confucian and Confucian teaching really wasn't central factor of political philosophy but rather as bureaucratic agenda. And our current authoritarianism and collectivism really isn't the reflection of Confucianism but rather reflection of militarism and fascism. Korea have adopted Confucianism more than Chinese. But it's not only Confucianism. During the time of Unified Shilla period, Koreans have adopted Buddhism more than Chinese. Same way today's Koreans are adopting Christianity more than Americans. I don't think this reflects Korean people's innate connection with such teachings but rather it shows the political tradition of Korean people whom always played the role of servitude and flunkyism toward who ever was stronger and dominant at the particular period. "It is an 'indirect' result of Confucianism...which places 'Cho' as one of the 'sons' of Korean family members. Korea(as a family) wants to convey condolences for the 'misdeeds'(killings)...as a parent would do for the wrongdoings of one's sons/daughters....since Cho is of Korean birth...signifying the need to address the "Virtue'.....as denoted in Confucianism." I can't believe I am reading this. Do you actually believe that Confucianism have indirect role of such massacre? I brought the issue up not because I believe there is connection. But because previously I was talking about the role of individuals in relation to preserving the mutual and interactive structure of family, society, nation and world. And how such interconnection relates with every individuals being responsible for one individual's mistaken. And I didn't wanted such system to mislead to justifying that every Koreans are fault of such massacre. However IF we are to view such unfortunate incident in Confucian perspective, we can problematize the role of parents, older sister, Cho's roommates and his professors who all had direct contact with Cho in certain way and they could have played the more positively influential role to prevent such tragedy rather than problematizing the entire Korean nationals in this world simply for sharing same nationality....why not also blame everyone with lastname "Cho"? I consider such custom to be backward and impractical in modern society. As I have mentioned earlier, Korean society is shifting in certain direction in relation to nuclear family structure, professionalism and educational system which concentrate on one's own major course which also lead to the values of individuality. However, such militarized collectivism doesn't even share common historical foundation. I have mentioned Prussia's and Tsarist Russian Empire's police states, however in Germany's case, they don't preserve it.(It is actually very absurd for majority of Westerners to continuously accepting such militarism) And Russians' case is bit different because their politic is just way to corrupted. If we are to have cultural pride, we should do that as valuable tradition but not as contemporary reference of social lives. We need new cultural values. Main dilemma for today's Koreans are they are living in the world of alienation because they are living in modern society with pre-modern mindset. They are alienated from the modern reality which they are living in. We have the highest suicide rate among all the OECD nations. That is something to think about in terms of cultural backwardness of their world views and actual world that they are living in. P.S.: As far as whether being the oldest son is "curse" or not. Majority of Koreans will say that you are far more mature than I am to take such a role "positively." But I think when i say such role is "curse" I think that will hit the hearts of majority of oldest Korean sons out there. I actually took the word "curse" in relation to being the oldest Korean son because I read this one Korean American magazine where one man wrote a letter as he identified as being an oldest son. He continued by referring to it as "curse". "If I could lead you into the promised land, i could lead you back out again."
| ||
4/20/2008 12:00 am |
"Entirely"?? Yes...of course not....but Japanese view of Confucianism is very different than the view of Korean's....any beliefs/principles/ideologies....can not be same(exact duplicate) as the "original" ones.....easy example is Western version of "Christianity".....look where it originated.....offshoot from Judaism..... True Confucianism as denoted by Chinese version is incomparable to other Asian countries....that is..other East Asian or Southeastern countries....do not share its principles as closely as Koreans do....theirs vary greatly when compared to Korean. Korea has kept its principles as close as it gets... I believe Korean version of "Confucianism" is the only one that has real merit when comparing to "similarities" with the Chinese one.....and not deviating too much from its original source..... Case in point...as you have stated...."Japanese have respect for "seniors" in school. But despite such statue, Japanese don't even refer to them as "senpai" like the way Koreans refer them as "sunbae." Japanese "gohai" have right to refuse in more of equal bases than Koreans." Exactly....this is not the true version of Confucian ethics Although Japanese have accepted Confucianism, their version is not as closely related to the "original" Chinese version.....thus the "differences" between Korean and Japanese....as previously mentioned regarding Judaism and Christianity.... True...Confucianism is not "authoritarianism"....but rather reign as a source of "Morality"...."As much as Confucianism have respect for authority, I don't necessarily believe it is authoritarianism. Confucian values also have very strong values for the roles of individuals and emphasis is also on strong interaction of various individuals". Yes, it emphasizes "individuality"....for the good of the "whole"....the family, society, country....never the selfish-motives of an individuals.... "This is why when an individual have caused a problem, they will actually claim that it is a fault of entire group because they believe that each individuals have roles to prevent such outcome. Of course, this is only refer to groups where people have direct connection with each others."......yes, very poignant! Regarding "Virginia Tech" shooting....this is where we get "fuzzy"....hmmmm, fuzzy math...lol (Sorry, I had to throw that one ).....It is an "indirect" result of Confucianism.....which places "Cho" as one of the "sons" of Korean family members. Korea(as a family) wants to convey condolences for the "misdeeds"(killings).....as a parent would do for the wrongdoings of one's sons/daughters.....since Cho is of Korean birth.....signifying the need to address the "Virtue"....as denoted in Confucianism. As for "Prussia" and "President Park"....and the rest.. in reference to Confucianism....my knowledge is very limited....don't know what to say. BUT....most of all, I don't think it's a "curse" to be the first-born...I am the eldest, and yet...I, for one, do not see it as a "curse". I'm really SURPRISED! A backward culture, did I hear?? Korea has embraced Confucianism since its introduction to our peninsula....whether "foreign" doesn't matter. Yes, I agree that "IT" has some very NEGATIVE aspects....but "IT" has become the hallmark of our "continuity"....a tradition that has withstood the test of time.....testifying to the world out there...that we, Koreans, are the "most Confucian-society" among all the Asian countries.....even surpassing China! Indeed, I am very proud....and despite us(many Koreans) being Christians...the remnants of "Confucian shadow" follows...wherever the "light" evokes...... '
| ||
 4/19/2008 3:53 pm |
Nice post Je te Veux. Interesting and I agree with alot of it.
| ||
4/19/2008 9:30 am |
two2tango I agree. However, I don't think it is entirely "Confucianism" that really shape Korean authoritarianism. First, there is strong sense of respect in Christian tradition as well. Confucian tradition exists in other Asian countries but there are far more greater restriction in Korea. Japanese have respect for "seniors" in school. But despite such statue, Japanese don't even refer to them as "senpai" like the way Koreans refer them as "sunbae." Japanese "gohai" have right to refuse in more of equal bases than Koreans. As much as Confucianism have respect for authority, I don't necessarily believe it is authoritarianism. Confucian values also have very strong values for the roles of individuals and emphasis is also on strong interaction of various individuals. This is why when an individual have caused a problem, they will actually claim that it is a fault of entire group because they believe that each individuals have roles to prevent such outcome. Of course, this is only refer to groups where people have direct connection with each others. Generalizing the entire race or nationality based upon one individual doesn't have relevancy in Confucianism.(For example, when Korean people felt the need to apologize for what happened to Virginia Tech University last year in regard to Cho Seung Hee incident isn't relevant to Confucian values in relation to roles of individuals and preserving relation of mutual relationship) Kind of education system that I have referred didn't even existed until Yi Dynasty. If I should reach to far past, one of first factor was militarization of Korean society in Taehan Empire. They were heavily influenced by Meiji Japan who also strongly borrowed Bismarkian Prussia as well as Tsarist Russian Empire. Korean collectivism have shaped in this period as machination of people as engines of state. Korean Enlighten intellectuals have often identified state as corporation and citizens as workers. This was done under the mechanism of militarism. So obedient toward the authority became more stricter form. They have adapted militarized education system as that of Prussia under Bismark and Tsarist Russian Empire and have replaced Confucian values of constant self-improvements to militarist indoctrination. Such institutionalization is also strongly visible in modern Korean society under military dictatorship. Almost every social institutions under Park Jung Hee became militarized. Respect for the authority, elimination of individual values by institutionalizing identical uniform(we still see this in Korean school), institutionalizing identical hair styles and length(also quite visible in Korean school). And they did this under Confucian code. So I don't think this is really the result of Confucianization of Korean society but more of militarization of Confucianism. So despite the fact that military dictatorship was overthrown, culture of militarism still exist in Korean society such as ritualistic abuse of younger students by their senior members. And other references I have mentioned previously. Authoritarianism plays very strong role 'til these days in Korea under strong restrictive collectivism. Where every different "opinions" becomes "talking back" to the authority. Fulfilling one's own dream and future that might contradict with one's own parents' expectation is considered as "boorhyo" which basically means "bad sons" or "bad daughters." There is very strong restrictive norm that one is expect to follow without any values of individuality. What this means is that Korean society have became very modernized when it comes to their infrastructure but they are still terribly backward when it comes to suprastructure. They are living in modern society with pre-modern mindset. And in this context, it isn't that shocking that there are severly high suicide rates and alcoholism is being practiced not as socialization with others but as practice of escapism. Elder brother responsibility is just one of them. I myself am the oldest son of family and I think I speak for many Korean men who are the oldest son, it is a "curse." This is why I have no intension of preserving such a backward culture because I don't want my next generation to suffer from it as well. "If I could lead you into the promised land, i could lead you back out again."
| ||
4/19/2008 6:11 am |
Yeah, jeteveux, they would rebuke by saying how dare you talk back...lol Sure, piaomeng...since Korea borrowed heavily from China....in this case, Confucianism....
| ||
4/19/2008 2:07 am |
Traditional Korean family structure was based on extended family. So it was multiple families of same genealogy lived together. And managements of family wealth was collectively controlled and the idea of one individual monopolizing the entire wealth was unthinkable. So it probably was financially less stressful for the oldest son to take care of his parents then current nuclear family structure. When wealth is more atomized it is definitely more difficult and more of burden for oldest son to take care of his parents than they did traditionally. I think it is Western influences when it comes to over all structural changes in Korean society from extended family to nuclear family, collective management of wealth to individualized wealth and aristocratic society to capitalist society. However, I don't think it was necessarily Western influence when it comes to the mindset of family or relationship between parents to children(in Korea person who is 30 years old is still considered as "child" to his 50 years old parents). Koreans are still overly very authoritarian where "obedient" is fundamental factor that determines the society. Whether it is older sibling to younger sibling, when there is age gap, there really is strong unequal standard of relationship. In Korea, students still can't hold disagreement with teacher(professor). Majority of Korean elders still have problem with young Korean individual who seem to have a view that contradicts with elders. In such a situation, what the younger person said won't be consider as different "opinion" but rather as "talking back." "If I could lead you into the promised land, i could lead you back out again."
| ||
4/19/2008 12:30 am |
China has the same culture; And i think this culture will last for quite a long time in East Asia(maybe forever). Thanks~
| ||
4/18/2008 8:57 pm |
Owen, that was a good start. Well said. I wish everybody in the US would help care for their parents. I hope Koreans don't give up this tradition of taking care of their parent's. That was one of the things I admired about Korean culture !  KORN
| ||
4/18/2008 6:31 pm |
Absolutely! Without a doubt it is due to Western influences....but certainly not the only reason....and economic reason as well. It's hard to say but by accepting Western influences....such as style, arts/fashion/music, cuisines, etc....we have viewed "theirs" to be grand, magnificent, romantic and sophisticated.....especially France and Italy.....oh, and US too, of course.... It was very respectable and thought to be "highly civilized to be westernized" in the eyes of "then" Koreans. To this day, it is "hip" and the tradition of sending their kids to many western/US colleges continue.....even to a point of some mothers "selling herself" to obtain tuitions On the flip side, unfortunately, many siblings quibble over inheritance....disregarding primogeniture and complain for wanting more "piece of the pie".....and sadly, shy away to assist the eldest for the welfare of their parents Ironically, as Korea progresses, greed is beginning to take an effect on the customs and traditions of Korean culture......even at the cost of declination of showing respect to one's elders and family values....a huge change within 3 decades. As more and more Koreans find "individuality" satisfying....free from constant meddling....more and more parents are sent to senior apartments.... Will the next 3 decades be ominous? Or will we, Koreans, be aware and evermore watchful of our actions? Ok, then......on one hand, responsibilities will be allocated....but on the other hand, will the eldest willing to allocate his inheritance....just as equally?? 
|
 |
 |
 |
| Become a member to comment on this blog | ||
 |
|
